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Post by nickd on Dec 19, 2012 23:50:08 GMT 1
Tory MP introduces 'welfare card bill' A step too far?"Tory MP Alec Shelbrooke introduces Bill for Welfare Cash Card, to stop claimants buying cigarettes and alcohol"By Matthew Barrett
Follow Matthew on Twitter.
This morning in the Commons, Alec Shelbrooke, the Member of Parliament for Elmet and Rothwell introduced a Bill calling for the introduction of a Welfare Cash Card to prevent welfare claimants from buying what Mr Shelbrooke called "NEDD" (Non-Essential, Desirable and often Damaging) items, including cigarettes, alcohol, paid television and gambling. This would apply to all claimants in work and out of work, and would cover all benefits other than disability payments and the basic state pension.
Mr Shelbrooke used the original "five giant evils" idea from the Beveridge Report to argue that introducing a Welfare Cash Card would remove the perception of idleness from welfare claimants. He said:
"It is seventy years this very month since the Beveridge Report identified the five giant evils that plagued society; disease, want, ignorance, squalor, and idleness. Members on all sides of this House will want to praise successive Governments for their advances to eradicate these evils. But idleness remains prevalent today. The something for nothing culture encouraged by the previous Labour Government created a two-tier benefits system where the strivers and low paid workers have been penalised for the idleness of the shirkers. This Bill seeks to work alongside this Government’s welfare reforms to support those hard working families who strive to be self supporting by ending the something for nothing stigma of the welfare system."
Mr Shelbrooke also made the case that the Welfare Cash Card could mean claimants using their money for more responsible purposes, such as providing their children with a better lifestyle:
"Furthermore, the Welfare Cash Card has the potential for more social good, not least assisting efforts to eradicate child poverty. Statistics show that over 1.26 million claimants have children. Prohibiting the purchases of NEDD items such as cigarettes and alcohol, leaves more money for priority purchases on children... To put this in monetary terms, the ONS measures that the average household spends £48 a month on cigarettes, alcohol and narcotics. Even if this Bill creates the slightest chance of raising these children out of poverty, reducing the chances of them going to school hungry or simply being subjected to secondary inhalation of smoke, then I would argue it is worth it."
Mr Shelbrooke concluded:
"We must change this vision of the benefits system. We must change this perception to support those in society who need the benefit system to help them get on and work hard in life. The Welfare Cash Card does just that; it’s not about dividing to rule but ending Labour’s divisive two-tier benefit system and the damaging perception that accompanied it. It backs the low paid workers and supports all job-seekers to spend responsibly, take control of their finances and get back on their feet. The Welfare State can no longer be seen as getting something for nothing - it must deliver on Beveridge’s vision of a temporary security net by using benefits to create a society of strivers."
Tuesday, December 18, 2012 in Alec Shelbrooke MP
conservativehome.blogs.com/parliament/2012/12/tory-mp-alecshelbrooke-introduces-bill-for-welfare-cash-card-to-stop-claimants-buying-cigarettes-and.html
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Post by jetsetwilly on Dec 21, 2012 13:20:03 GMT 1
And how long would it be untill the cards were cloned?
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Post by swlabr on Dec 22, 2012 12:34:25 GMT 1
I believe the aim here is more control over consumer spending. Instead of having to advertise for custom big companies can bribe MPs to have custom mandated to them. I'm sure they'll be expanding this concept far beyond the unemployed if it gets a foothold. It's guaranteed income for business in trying times. Lightyears away from being in the interests of the elctorate of course.
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Post by nickd on Dec 22, 2012 15:58:43 GMT 1
I did wonder if there may be a commercial interest here swlabr,
I suspect commercial entity deals centred around cheaper pricing with certain suppliers acting as 'payment points' could no doubt be struck up to the advantage of government and the DWP.
I suppose they could strike up deals with large suppliers (including energy firms) on pricing to effectively 'de-value' the cost of providing benefits.
Whatever the motive, I hate the idea and hope it's relegated to the useless waste of time bill bin at the earliest opportunity!
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Post by dunserving on Dec 26, 2012 18:42:16 GMT 1
Personally I see nothing wrong (in principle) with paying benefits by placing a monetary value on a card; much like happens with company fuel cards or government procurement cards.
All major supermarket chains would have to sign up to their use though and a "cunning plan" devised for those who don't live near one of the big supermarket chains and can't travel. Not difficult for the big brains to figure out I'd have thought!
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Post by jetsetwilly on Dec 27, 2012 11:39:40 GMT 1
Personally I see nothing wrong (in principle) with paying benefits by placing a monetary value on a card; much like happens with company fuel cards or government procurement cards. All major supermarket chains would have to sign up to their use though and a "cunning plan" devised for those who don't live near one of the big supermarket chains and can't travel. Not difficult for the big brains to figure out I'd have thought! And how would one get the little corner shops to sort it out or garages for petrol, or maybe a Cinema for the very rare visits some have? It might work for alcoholics and drug addicts but in all honesty I just see it as some grovelling Tory [auto mod] trying to get his face seen by the other Tory twats in Cabinet And as I said previously they could and would be very easily cloned and changed etc etc etc |
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Post by dunserving on Dec 27, 2012 12:00:23 GMT 1
jetset,
swearing isn't very grown up. As I said in my post a "cunning plan" would have to be designed for those who don't live near big supermarkets. This plan would obviously have to involve your corner shops and as for cloning that is relatively easily managed with the technology available now.
As for Cinemas, whereas I don't begrudge anyone having a rare luxury, I cannot for the life of me see how any government irrespective of ideology would factor in luxuries for those on benefits and justify it to those on low incomes just above the level that qualifies them to benefits!
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Post by jetsetwilly on Dec 28, 2012 9:28:55 GMT 1
jetset, swearing isn't very grown up. It wasnt swearing but obviously a word that the word censor didnt like. As for Cinemas, whereas I don't begrudge anyone having a rare luxury, I cannot for the life of me see how any government irrespective of ideology would factor in luxuries for those on benefits and justify it to those on low incomes just above the level that qualifies them to benefits! [/quote] Just a point but it isnt up to anyone but the beneficiary as to how their legally entitled money is spent. I rarely if ever get out of my house, and sometimes, just sometimes the pain level will drop to a bearable level that a cinema visit is possible for me. For me its an event of the year, generally spoken about for weeks after and brings a little light into my otherwise housebound life. |
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Post by dunserving on Dec 28, 2012 12:18:02 GMT 1
If the word between Tory and in isn't swearing what is?
I'm sorry you can't get out of your house on anything other than a rare occasion but you completely miss the point. Benefit is not and never was designed to provide luxury items of which a trip to the cinema would be so labelled. Benefit is and was designed to provide basic needs only, irrespective of the level of disability.
I am also disabled and rarely get out of my house.
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Post by jetsetwilly on Dec 28, 2012 13:14:45 GMT 1
If the word between Tory and in isn't swearing what is? It is whatever the person who set up the forum put into the Censor file. I am sorry you cant get out of your house. BUT I consider your description of Disability Benefits to be at fault. Basic needs for ordinary benefits? yes as those people are able to work. But Disabled and long term disabled in particular arent able to work. If it was only only to provide basic needs for Disabled then the average amount of IB+ Carers allowance+ Pension Credit+ DLA at High rate care and high rate mobility+HB and CT is far too high. Ive always considered that Benefits for the Disabled were there to allow people to at least maintain a decent lifestyle or at least a modicum of decency. Then again Im sure IDS was referring to Drugaddicts and alcoholics when he was speaking about a Card |
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Post by dunserving on Dec 28, 2012 13:59:06 GMT 1
I'm not on about this - I just see it as some grovelling Tory [auto mod]
I am on about this - trying to get his face seen by the other Tory twats in Cabinet
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Post by jetsetwilly on Dec 28, 2012 15:09:55 GMT 1
I'm not on about this - I just see it as some grovelling Tory [ auto mod] I am on about this - trying to get his face seen by the other Tory twats in Cabinet Good Grief ! |
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Post by pompeyfaith on Dec 29, 2012 20:52:03 GMT 1
I do not see how this will help and the survey they did was not representative of the population, how will the Government make up the shortfall in lost revenue from alcohol and tobacco because you can bet they will want to make it up somewhere and my guess is an increase in VAT so the very citizens for this mad idea will end up paying the price of yet more tory failure.
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Post by seaspirit on Dec 29, 2012 22:30:12 GMT 1
Idleness is prevalent??? Well, noo, Alec, your old battleaxe, Muggie 'the hatchet' Thatcher killed off British industry. She set her sights on breaking the unions so that bosses could pay very low wages, sack workers without a second thought.....and threw folk onto the 'dole'. And then YOU lot, today, close Remploy factories, sending thousands of disabled workers on to the 'dole'.....idleness. Your party has killed this country. Your party hounds the sick, the disabled, the disadvantaged, the poor, and woos the rich by low taxes and then, when individuals and companies DON'T pay their dues, you fête them and accept whatever their greedy hearts can be bothered to part with.
Idleness. When mps can't be bothered doing their best for their country, but do whatever they can to further themselves.
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Post by pompeyfaith on Dec 29, 2012 22:32:16 GMT 1
The very idea of setting one section of society against another stinks and I do not like it, just as I do not like class I dream of a nation without class as that very structure breeds greed.
At the end of the day we are all citizens of these nation with varying levels of comfort and education that is what makes the nation as vibrant as it is.
A cash card will do nothing, nothing at all to help poverty as they that smoke, drink or gamble will find other means to do such and no doubt crime will rise, govt will lose much needed taxation revenue.
Furthermore every one of us no matter what class [sic] we perceive to be in are recipients of benefits whether that be free education, The NHS, library book loans, etc etc the list is endless we all receive a benefit whether we are sick, disabled, able, working, unemployed, earning £5000 a year or £100,000 a year we are all benefit claimants.
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Post by dunserving on Dec 30, 2012 18:15:21 GMT 1
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Post by nickd on Dec 30, 2012 23:00:08 GMT 1
Anyone had a listen to dunserving's link to LBC radio and listened to 'Paul's' conversation?
Just to return to topic the original issue is over the welfare cash card and I'm curious as to how it's been associated with 'idleness'?
dunserving. Sometimes when posting a hyper-link they don't work on the forum. When posting, if you select 'insert hyperlink' and then drag over the link you are inserting it will insert
'url coding' like this > [ url ] [ /url ] either side of the link and all should work then - many thanks.
Keep the conversation going...
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Post by jetsetwilly on Dec 31, 2012 10:45:28 GMT 1
The simple fact of the matter is, its a Non-issue. I cannot see any Government issuing cards such as these, other than people like drug addicts and severe alcoholics but even then I doubt it would work
What alarms me is the intention in UC to pay rent money directly to claimants. That is a route to total disaster.
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Post by dunserving on Dec 31, 2012 11:17:44 GMT 1
nick, I think the link from welfare cash card to idleness has possibly been made due to the oft believed mantra that all unemployed and/or disabled are bluffing/lazy or defrauding the system. Welfare recipients are after all an easy target for politicians and the media. Whereas there are undoubtedly fraudulent claimants and others who have become incapable of leaving the benefit system due to low wages/lack of employment in their area, I don't believe for one minute the majority of welfare claimants are idle, lazy or bluffing. Thanks for the advice on links. It's a different system on here than The Army Rumour Service. www.arrse.co.uk/ |
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Post by boatlady on Jan 6, 2013 20:17:38 GMT 1
I suspect there was never any serious intention to introduce such a thing - due to all the complications which will ensue, but the discussion around it certainly feeds into this government's discourse about the feckless, idle, unworthy poor, and enables yet another example to be placed before the public eye, as well as serving to support the 'divide and rule' tactics of this wicked government
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Post by faithsclarke on Jan 6, 2013 21:09:04 GMT 1
Tories say it is to help kids and make sure more money gets spent on kids...what about the parents who can ONLY afford to get clothes, toys and birthday and Xmas presents cheaply from car boot sales, charity shops and eBay? Kids will go without! What about kids birthday parties (few kids, bit of jelly and ice cream and a game of pass the parcel NOT expensive parties)? Kids go without yet again! What about a treasured school photo or essential school trip? Kids go without! What about the tiny reward for the child who has passed all their exams or done really well at something? Kid goes without! Kids won't be able to sell old toys to replace with *new* (2nd hand) ones because they can't sell them at car boots because their parents have no change for floats or to pay the stall fee. Maybe the kid would save their money they earned for a rain day but they can't so lose valuable saving experience.
Parents (and single people) on benefits often shop at car boot sales, charity shops, eBay, pound shops, Homebargains etc because they can get essentials (toys, clothes, food etc) cheaply. These cards will stop people having actual money so they cannot do any of the above. Children will miss out on a lot of things and so will adults! The Tories will manipulate them so they can ONLY be used at certain places (which may not be local and will NOT be independent) owned by their millionaire mates so yet again it's the rich people who win! Local independent businesses and charities will lose out due to loss of a lot of customers.
Oh and don't think it's ONLY for alcoholics and druggies! It may be at first but slowly it will creep over to ALL people on JSA, then anyone who gets child benefits, then all on ESA, then anyone on housing or council tax benefits, then anyone on tax credits!!! Oh and don't think you're ok because you have a nice cushie job and don't have any benefits or tax credits because the Tories will no doubt make sure that you lose your job due to budget cuts and the recession. Maybe you're one of the lucky ones who hang on to your job.....but then you have an accident or become seriously ill and can't work.....and *shock horror* find yourself on benefits!!!!! Oh look, you're unable to buy any so called luxuries....or anything else!
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Post by nickd on Jan 15, 2013 23:11:08 GMT 1
Latest news on the Bill This Bill is expected to have its second reading debate on 1 March 2013. This Bill was introduced to Parliament on 18 December 2012 under the Ten Minute Rule. This allows an MP to make his or her case for a new bill in a speech lasting up to ten minutes. An opposing speech may also be made before the House decides whether or not the bill should be introduced. If the MP is successful the bill is taken to have had its first reading. This Bill is a Private Member’s Bill. These are often not printed until close to the second reading debate. If the text is not yet available here and you wish to know more about this bill please contact its sponsor, Alec Shelbrooke. Summary of the Bill A Bill to provide for the introduction of a welfare cash card; and for connected purposes. services.parliament.uk/bills/2012-13/welfarecashcard.html |
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Post by dunserving on Jan 16, 2013 0:35:54 GMT 1
Tories say it is to help kids and make sure more money gets spent on kids...what about the parents who can ONLY afford to get clothes, toys and birthday and Xmas presents cheaply from car boot sales, charity shops and eBay? Kids will go without! What about kids birthday parties (few kids, bit of jelly and ice cream and a game of pass the parcel NOT expensive parties)? Kids go without yet again! What about a treasured school photo or essential school trip? Kids go without! What about the tiny reward for the child who has passed all their exams or done really well at something? Kid goes without! Kids won't be able to sell old toys to replace with *new* (2nd hand) ones because they can't sell them at car boots because their parents have no change for floats or to pay the stall fee. Maybe the kid would save their money they earned for a rain day but they can't so lose valuable saving experience. Parents (and single people) on benefits often shop at car boot sales, charity shops, eBay, pound shops, Homebargains etc because they can get essentials (toys, clothes, food etc) cheaply. These cards will stop people having actual money so they cannot do any of the above. Children will miss out on a lot of things and so will adults! The Tories will manipulate them so they can ONLY be used at certain places (which may not be local and will NOT be independent) owned by their millionaire mates so yet again it's the rich people who win! Local independent businesses and charities will lose out due to loss of a lot of customers. Oh and don't think it's ONLY for alcoholics and druggies! It may be at first but slowly it will creep over to ALL people on JSA, then anyone who gets child benefits, then all on ESA, then anyone on housing or council tax benefits, then anyone on tax credits!!! Oh and don't think you're ok because you have a nice cushie job and don't have any benefits or tax credits because the Tories will no doubt make sure that you lose your job due to budget cuts and the recession. Maybe you're one of the lucky ones who hang on to your job.....but then you have an accident or become seriously ill and can't work.....and *shock horror* find yourself on benefits!!!!! Oh look, you're unable to buy any so called luxuries....or anything else! Harsh I know but Benefits were never designed to pay for birthday or Christmas presents, toys, parties or as a reward to children for passing exams. I grew up wearing hand me downs, doing a morning, evening & Sunday paper round to be able to afford little luxuries like second hand bike bits so I could build my own bike; and this at a time when we had one coal fire in the living room, free school meals and missing out on school trips because my parents couldn't afford the cost and walking more than 5 miles to & then from school and going to bed fully clothed. This was all during governments ran by both the Tories and Labour and if the modern British electorate is going to vote in a government that pours it's resources down the drain, sooner or later someone has to pay and Welfare recipients, like me and many others who have been frugal and financially "prudent" all their lives, are going to be easy targets. |
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Post by dunserving on Jan 16, 2013 0:37:59 GMT 1
Latest news on the Bill This Bill is expected to have its second reading debate on 1 March 2013. This Bill was introduced to Parliament on 18 December 2012 under the Ten Minute Rule. This allows an MP to make his or her case for a new bill in a speech lasting up to ten minutes. An opposing speech may also be made before the House decides whether or not the bill should be introduced. If the MP is successful the bill is taken to have had its first reading. This Bill is a Private Member’s Bill. These are often not printed until close to the second reading debate. If the text is not yet available here and you wish to know more about this bill please contact its sponsor, Alec Shelbrooke. Summary of the Bill A Bill to provide for the introduction of a welfare cash card; and for connected purposes. services.parliament.uk/bills/2012-13/welfarecashcard.htmlNickd, didn't realise it was only a private members' bill. Not going to happen then is it! |
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Post by nickd on Jan 16, 2013 0:59:18 GMT 1
Dunserving,
The feeling seems to be it won't get through but none the less given the way it's attracted media attention it could I suppose potentially escalate in to something stronger, perhaps not now but in the future.
My own view is that it simply doesn't fit with the emphasis welfare reform is supposedly placing on 'taking charge of your own finances', with a move towards monthly payments and direct HB payments to claimants rather than to social landlords. I also think it would cause havoc with Universal Credit (UC) and the variable & changing amounts of payment as the card would need to be continually 'revalued' in monetary terms due to fluctuations in real time information via HMRC over wages so UC won't be a fixed amount. UC will go up and down in short 'assessed income periods' so the amounts will be very variable.
Remember UC is a combination of HB, Income Support, ESA, JSA, (income based) and Working & Child Tax Credits. Claimants will also have their earnings paid in to their own chosen accounts so I can't for the life of me see how you can control the account to reflect the value of the card & the cost of introducing the whole thing would be prohibitive.
The variation in amounts would be a nightmare as it is the card's 'value' which would need changing rather than (as in a debit or credit card) the account itself if you see what I mean?
I can't see it going very far simply due to its impracticality with Universal Credit.
I think IDS has enough headaches to deal with already without yet another potential calamity in implementing this impractical idea!
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Post by dunserving on Feb 9, 2013 14:49:21 GMT 1
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